[some spelling- and grammar errors claned up; phani.]
We have undergone both the systems and this is our experience.
In the Bhakti-vriksha system, we found that it was really energy sapping and time consuming. It is run weekly versus the counselor system which meets fortnightly. Both systems require a couple to run, especially if you have children coming as well.
The first module of BV, Shraddavan, is excellent, but the modules after that are quite advanced for most people in our group. But for people who are serious, it works quite well.
In an environment where there is a mixed group, where mostly wives come and no husband support, it is quite an uphill task. In the Middle East, most devotees are Indians who are naturally sattvic and there isn't much night life. It is quite natural for them to adapt to the BV system. Even the Counselor system will work very well there.
The beauty of BV is you identify leaders naturally. The enthusiastic ones naturally want to serve, sacrifice their time and energy for others. However, if you have the Counselor system running concurrently, where more senior devotees are preaching, BV will fail. The devotees will naturally move to the Counselor system, since the preachers are much more experienced. To make matters worse, the Counselor system insists on one being a counselee in order to get initiation. BV will never survive in a mixed environment.
The Counselor system is working well in Chowpatty because they have a natural leader, HH Radhanath Maharaja, to hold the reins. He is training the counselors personally. On top of that they have a good stock of devotees of high caliber. Mumbai is one of the most populated areas and the chances of getting good and dedicated devotees are very high. Even if you run a BV system there, it will work beautifully.
In other places where a leader like Maharaj is not available, you will find devotees being victimized by "counselors" who act as the "guru's representative" and confer advice as if it was a dictum of the parampara. Those of us who have been at the other end of that stick know just how intimidating such "counseling" can be to relative newcomers.
Most times they impose rules on you and if you say anything against it, you are blackmarked. You have to follow authority and the board makes the decision. Your initiation is made really difficult if you oppose authority, even if you are right. Unlike the BV system, the natural leadership ability of a person is never discovered. The counseling system will be abused by conditioned souls who find some satisfaction in lording it over others, especially using untrained non-professionals.
We doubt if both the systems will go down well in America or most Western countries.
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Our experience in BV and CS
The comments in this letter were quite interesting for me to read.
As part of my learning, I request the author to share some reasons why he/she thinks Bv (as well as CS) will not be successful in Western countries.
By the way, BV works very well in the Indian metros also, where there is far more night-life as well as the pressure of family to contend with. I find that in every new place we go to some one or the other says there is something unique about their city which prevents devotees from making a high committment of their time to Krishna Consciousness. Further detailed discussions with them normally reveals that tthe life in that city is not quite as unique as they think.
Another factoid - the high level of commitment required in BV actually ensures the advancement of the devotees.
One size won't fit all
Like I said BV would work well even in Mumbai where there are more night-life activities. I am not disagreeing with that.
Where there are not many Indians (who are naturally sattvic and of high caliber), it is not easy to get one to take up a serious class for long period, 18 months is too long for them. And the modules are difficult for most of them. Anyway this is our experience. Plus we had to compete with Counseling System at the same time. It made it very difficult.
Our Experience with BV and CS
Luckily, there are in fact places where there are no Indians at all, where dozens of BV's are running successfully. We visit these places frequently to help them.
No doubt Vidura prabhu has faced a lot of problems, but I think they are specific to his place, not based on nationality, but some other circumstances.
Being Indian is in no way a pre-requisite for success in BV. I am sure many people will contest the flattering statement (to me, an Indian), that we are more sattvic than people of other nationalities. Indians, especially the urban ones, are as rajasic as the next man. In fact, in the places I am referring to, the Indian expatriates are the tough nuts, who are hardly serious, while the locals are extremely serious and committed.
With Lord Caitanya's mercy, I think BV can be implemented successfully anywhere in the world. China is the only country where I think the going would be extremely tough, due to the effect of their diet!
Please listen to us
I am sorry but you just don't seem to want to accept the fact that some BVs have failed outside China even though we are telling you our experiences.
If authorities don't want to listen to us and insist on what they perceive are right how are we going to improve?
Lets do an analysis of places where you conducted classes in countries where it failed. We are in one of those countries.
It will be good if you can list the countries/cities where BV is practised and is growing. Lets see the numbers and figures and how long they have been around to get an idea where it succeeded and where it failed; and why it failed.
One size will definitely NOT fit all. There must be some modifications done to the BV modules for it to succeed in most places.
angry at the wrong person
vidura prabhu, i'm afraid you are getting angry at the wrong person. vijay venugopal prabhu did not say there were no failing BV groups outside of china. he did say this:
i'm also aware of places where so-called bhakti-vriksha is being practiced, following some letters of the program, but not coming close to grasping the spirit.
you are right in saying that detailed statistics should be provided about the progress of bhakti-vriksha and congregational preaching in general. it's not vijaya venugopal prabhu's fault that these statistics aren't available. he and prema padmini mataji have been trying very hard for years to convince groups, centers, and temples all over the world to submit quarterly scores about their preaching activities.
now this responsibility lies with us, the congregational development ministry, and myself in particular, as i'm trying to improve our online facilities for reporting congregational preaching results on our website. if you look at our cpscores content channel, you'll see temples and areas that did report their results for last year.
the display needs to be improved, to make it easier to see what's happening in which areas, and we have to contact more devotees all over the world and convince them to send in their scores regularly. that's one of our main responsibilities, and i have to admit that so far we haven't been very successful at it.
the idea is to eventually be able to better understand which programs work where, in what type of environment, and which don't. as far as "the modules" are concerned, of course they can be adjusted to local needs. before i can say much about them, i'll have to publish them here on our website, though—one of the things i just don't get around to, even though it's urgently required.
ys phani.
Not angry, just sad
Reports are normally difficult to get from most groups. We faced that difficulty as well.
A suggestion:
For all the places visited by BV pioneers like Vijay Venugopal prabhu, can they just give a call to the country representative (at least 2 people) that they met before and ask some questions. You will get a lot of feedback that way.
Some questions:
1. How many BV they started with?
2. Were the leaders trained in BV modules?
3. Are they still on-going? For how long?
4. If it's not on-going, when it failed? Why?
5. How many still attend the BV?
6. Besides BV, are there any other system that they are following? Has this in any way affected the BV?
good suggestion
i like this suggestion and, in fact, was thinking about something similar.
at present, most of our cong. preaching scores get filled up by devotees who oversee a large area with many groups. this way we receive statistics that cover a broad range only.
i would like to get reports from different levels: from the single groups, stating what and how they are doing, including a review of their supervising devotees. also in the other direction, reports from the supervising devotees, what they think about the groups under their care, and finally from those who supervise the supervisors.
this way we'd get an idea what's going on. often people don't see themselves and their work in the same way others do--from further "up," or further "down" the responsibility ladder.
the problem is communication: we don't have addresses of all these people, don't even know who they are, in most cases. the internet would be a great medium to get in contact with everybody, but so far we are lucky if we receive any reports at all from most places.
this requires some research and digging; after getting one contact, we'll have to find out who his or her contacts are, "above" and "below," and get in contact with these people, etc., etc.
this requires a lot of time, and right now i don't have that, and neither is there anyone available to help. how about you? do you have some free time and would like to get involved in this?
in any case, i'll take up your suggestion and prepare an online form that travelling preachers like vijay venugopal prabhu and others can easily fill up online when they visit new places. i think this should help in getting more contacts, as well as information about the state of these areas.
ys phani.
Use contacts you already have first and work from there
You could start off with the contacts which Vijay pr already have. Wherever they visit, they usually have the contact person's name, e-mail address and phone no.
Other sources to get contacts
The other person who will have most of the contacts world wide is HH Jayapataka Swami. He has visited almost all Iskcon centers worldwide and I am sure his secretary will have these contacts.
You could also place questionaires in most well visited Iskcon sites for devotees to give their feedback. e.g. Dandavats.com, Iskcon.com, Mayapur.com and ask devotees to also place the questionaires in their own websites or e-groups so more people can be informed and they can respond to you directly.
again, good suggestions
...and again, we're already working on them. we are getting HH jayapataka maharaja's contacts from his office, and we are trying to approach them. many, unfortunately, don't work; sometimes the email address doesn't exist anymore; sometimes it wasn't written down properly by his secretary--they work only if the spelling is 100% correct; and sometimes devotees just don't reply.
so far our main focus has been to get cong. preaching reports ('scores') from those who lead BV or other groups or oversee cong. preaching of a temple or an area. otherwise to find out how we, the CD ministry, might be able to assist those who said they'd like to get in contact with us, or learn more about cong. development.
what we don't have yet is some sort of reporting form for devotees who are familiar with community preaching and visit many different places, like vijay venugopal prabhu. that's something i want to do soon and think may prove very valuable.
another thing is a "complaint form," for devotees who are not satisfied with how things are done--like yourself. these wouldn't be shown publicly, of course, but unless we know which place you're talking about, and which devotees, there isn't much we can do about it.
(even then we couldn't promise to change things over night; the CD minsitry doesn't have any executive power, can't instruct anybody how they are supposed to do their service. what we can do is try to explain how things can work better, and if necessary approach the devotee's superiors.
but as i said, for this we need to know exactly what's going on, and will listen to all concerned parties before making up our mind that something is wrong and should be changed.)
ys phani.
Taming the local management
>>even then we couldn't promise to change things over night; the CD minsitry doesn't have any executive power, can't instruct anybody how they are supposed to do their service.
This is the very reason why devotees don't normally speak up. Because nothing much can be achieved. No one has power over the local Temple management. If the election was done yearly, the members will have the power to decide on who deserve to be in the temple management.
Our experience in BV and CS
Thanks to both Vidura Prabhu and Phanisvara pabhu.
We have recently devised a comprehensive BV Performance monitoring form. We will first test it during our next tour to make sure devotees are ready to fill it up and then we'll send it across to Phanisvara prabhu.
Our service is to help different centres implement BV successfully. If it was automatically successful, we would not need to travel. And we keep learning everywhere we go. If it fails anywhere, it is not the fault of the BV system, nor the fault of any particular country's naional characteristics. If the attitude of the leadership is open, then it can be made to work with great success.
The feedback from devotees like Vidura prabhu is very important. We do get oral feedback wherever we go, and work on helping to solve the problems.